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Poll

Should operations play be linked to pvp play

Yes
7 (63.6%)
No
4 (36.4%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Author Topic: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!  (Read 441 times)

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Offline LilMiss

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #30 on: Aug 27, 2019, 09:22 PM »
I didn’t say remove the intel requirement, I suggested being able to buy intel while still maintaining the availability of “free” intel from other aspects of the game.

All “pushing” aspects of the game is for a small number of players.
Vp pushing is 1000 players above 1400vp and a global leaderboard of 50 with only 1 of those getting anything.
Crab pushing has a global leaderboard of 100 people.
Warships has a leaderboard of 500
Operation leaderboards have 50 taskforces * 4
Now you can extrapolate for local leaderboards and their cross overs with global.
Also the same players are likely to appear on several and with multiple accounts but what I am saying is it is all small numbers and players that are very dedicated and very very few of those small numbers are doing it completely free (in my opinion).

But every aspect of the game can be played independently of others (for free or not) except operations.
You have to grind out intel for operations which is very time consuming and if you are a leaderboard player then that is a huge burnout causing commitment. I know of many players who burned out and left the game due to that commitment and I am sure you know many more.
That needs to change and change in a way that benefits players and supercell.

You say the main game would become irrelevant but also you say it would only effect a small number of players. If so then the impact would be small.
If the pvp aspect of the game does not appeal to people then is forcing them to play something they dislike for hours to play a part they do like a sensible thing?

People would still play the pvp aspect because the intel is free and they could top it up with bought intel if necessary but they won’t be grinding themselves into leaving the game. Give people the option to choose.

Some people don’t attack pvp very much at all, they are perfectly happy killing npcs and events, building stuff. If you forced them to do pvp like is being done to op players would they continue to play? It is the forcing that I have come to think is unfair and unsustainable.

I don’t put this forward as a cure all just an option to be discussed, improved or rejected. Maybe used in conjunction with other suggestions.

If you make Intel purchaseable then you remove The need for intel. The reasons why it is integral to the game is not worthwhile.


You have misapplied on what I have said. I said that removing intel- which is what this thread is about - affects a small number of players at the top. However the impact (and this includes from purchasing) affects the whole game.

Yallik’s vid is about the fact that his TF wants to do DE as a 5 man to be on the LB.  that’s 138 per day. Which works out at 194 per week.

If you look at the 5 man LB you can get on there by doing fox - 93 LB per day - which is 131 per person per week.  It’s only right at the very top of the LB that they are doing DE.




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Offline Chaucer

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #31 on: Aug 27, 2019, 10:03 PM »
I do still agree that obtaining enough intel shouldn't be the measure of success on the Op leaderboard. And it definitely seems to be at the TF5 or TF10 level.
Personally I mostly play on TF50, so individual intel grind is much less of a concern.
Of course then the struggle is maintaining a full team given the weak search/recruiting system in place, but thats a seperate complaint...

Offline Brewingbeer

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #32 on: Aug 27, 2019, 10:06 PM »
Intel sells IT.

Online Artist formerly known as Crows Nest

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #33 on: Aug 27, 2019, 10:09 PM »
The cost of the intel is a matter of balance for supercell.
If I said the first tier of intel was 1 Euro/dollar/pound for 10 is that unbalanced? If the top level purchased was 100 intel for 8 e/d/p is that bad?
I make 200+ intel per week on my account, would me buying another 100 intel unbalance the game?
If everyone bought 10 intel per day in the game would that be unbalanced vs the extra money for supercell?
Personally I wouldn’t routinely buy intel but if it gave me a day off my normal commitment to the tf then I may well spend a little money.
Now if that means there are less attacks because people attack less then the leaderboards will adjust and supercell will rake in the money, some of which will go back into the game via development. To counter the less intel from defence then you would have earn more from attack so maybe we will get to attack more, adjusting the spawn percentages upwards. More attacking is a good thing.
The people buying intel will still be in the pvp pool, they have ops to do.
It is up to supercell to tweak and balance this new revenue stream.

I don’t think what I have suggested is the whole caboodle but I think it would address a few issues, more fun attacking, better life balance and more money from the game. It may even attract more players as there will be more fun attacking to do.

Again tying one aspect of the game to the most broken aspect of the game is not good. PvP has so many issues, maybe if PvP was not broken and more fun then things maybe workable. I am a pvp player and have seen that at almost every stage of the pvp game there are issues that turn off players. Forcing players to play this broken system to enjoy another part of the game is silly. RickC introduced Warships as the real pvp measure, crab is solo pve and ops are coop pve. Supercell hasn’t had it’s eye on the main game for a very long time, rework it but don’t force it on players. It is no longer the game, just a broken part of the game.


Edit fun discussion, lots of good points and shows again why the forum format has a lot to offer 👍
« Last Edit: Aug 27, 2019, 10:22 PM by Artist formerly known as Crows Nest »
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Offline Yallik

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #34 on: Aug 28, 2019, 12:22 AM »
If you look at the 5 man LB you can get on there by doing fox - 93 LB per day - which is 131 per person per week.  It’s only right at the very top of the LB that they are doing DE.

Well we reached as high as #8 on the 5-man LB, soooooooo ... yeah, it was a problem.

Offline LilMiss

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #35 on: Aug 28, 2019, 08:53 AM »
I do still agree that obtaining enough intel shouldn't be the measure of success on the Op leaderboard. And it definitely seems to be at the TF5 or TF10 level.
Personally I mostly play on TF50, so individual intel grind is much less of a concern.
Of course then the struggle is maintaining a full team given the weak search/recruiting system in place, but thats a seperate complaint...


The problem with the 5 and 10 man team is that it is solely focused on points - where as the 25 and 50 TFs are focused on op completion to get the points.

So it is sometimes better for a smaller team to do a higher OP and put huge pressure on themselves and gamble that they can solo the bases with the most points... than do fox with 100% completion. (which looking at the LB seems enough to get on there.) particularly as people do Lb runs - as high as possible in the shortest time possible - then disband.


Those boards are very dynamic as a result.

Doing DE in a 5 man wasn’t unknown, but when modding was banned the OP level lowered at the top of the LB. 

Since then we had the boosts lowered on OPs (to compensate for the Barbed wire update?)  and heroes have been introduced. This has brought newer and reliable strategies.

What SC should have done is to adjust the OPs - but they didn’t.  SC could still adjust the difficultly of the OPs and reduce the op needed to get to the top from DE to something more reasonable like CP.
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Offline LilMiss

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #36 on: Aug 28, 2019, 11:28 AM »
Well we reached as high as #8 on the 5-man LB, soooooooo ... yeah, it was a problem.

And get, some fully offensive players do manage 200 intel per werk
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Offline LilMiss

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #37 on: Aug 28, 2019, 05:02 PM »

Now if that means there are less attacks because people attack less then the leaderboards will adjust


 I said MM, Yallik interpreted this as the PVP LB. You seem to be going down the same path. to be clear, when I say MM I am not talking about the LB. I am talking about the mechanism for the whole game.


Quote
To counter the less intel from defence then you would have earn more from attack so maybe we will get to attack more, 


I cannot state this enough. But to be clear, again, there is a limit to how much intel you can get from attacking - even keeping your map clear as and when bases spawn on your map. There is a finite amount.


If you attack 10 pvp you can get 5 intel based on 50% drop rate, if you are lucky you can get 10.
If you are raided by 10 players you can get 20 intel.

There is a huge difference between intel earned via attacking and defence. It averages out, for me, about 8 intel per 10 raids on a no proto troops / ability week. Some I don't win any, some I win 2 intel .


If you cannot get it from attacking, and don't  make it up from raids on your base you will have no choice but to pay.

And Yallik's whole argument was that he doesn't like attacking PvP and he was experiencing burn out. telling people they have to attack more doesn't help. It will increase pressure to buy more intel and is counter productive.


Quote

The people buying intel will still be in the pvp pool,


That is the problem. They are still in the MM Pool!







I'm not quite sure where people have got this idea from that more revenue means a better product.  I may not think much of some of the content, but BB has a history of producing genuinely new content in each update... where as clash used to have  upgrading new defences or troops as "content",, plus the mandatory nerfs and bug fixes- and they had plenty money!


Edit: im surprised by the results of the poll so far. I thought I was going to be on my own  ;D
« Last Edit: Aug 28, 2019, 05:04 PM by LilMiss »
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Online Artist formerly known as Crows Nest

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #38 on: Aug 28, 2019, 06:08 PM »
Hmmm you’ve lost me.

If we spawn more opponents by increasing the amount of opponents that can spawn then the intel we gain from beating them all will increase.
Or if we make intel Chance 70% on pvp then we get more intel for no increase in attacking.
I have said that this is only a small part of suggested action to improve the game for more players. We should be able to buy intel for the reasons above but it is not the whole solution.

Yes a game earning more money will get a higher slice of the development budget, to be otherwise would be business stupidity. No business cares how many customers they have if they make no money. Coc makes lots of money so it gets a lot of money invested in developing the game to maintain that income or increase it. You may say it’s content is not ground breaking but it is working for them.
If Boom beach makes more money then it will get more investment. Companies rarely shut down products that are making an increasing amount of money.

To attack people we need people to be in the match making pool, how is that bad? You could say they will turtle but that is a very expensive method of turtling. It may move the wall down slightly but that in itself needs to be addressed as part of fixing pvp.

I don’t want to speak for Yallik but from what I know about him he does like pvp especially with warriors. What many people don’t want to do is spend hours and hours being FORCED to pvp to hit one 4 minute attack per day.

Why do people have multiple accounts? One big reason is because the current game does not engage them sufficiently on one account. Not enough pvp attacks, not enough operation attacks, not enough mega crab attacks. Can’t imagine many people wanting multiple accounts to defend more. So for those people with multiple accounts that want to hit multiple operations then they need to hop (not an in game option) or spend a stupid amount of time doing a broken pvp system which in my opinion is not the variety filled activity you think it is. 90% of my pvp kills are very samey I don’t share many attacks because they aren’t special but those that are go from satisfying to exciting.
You burnout a player with multiple accounts then you lose several accounts, supercell needs to do all it can to maintain these multiple account players. It is my opinion that these players are heavily invested in the game both in time and money.

Also if people do not earn enough intel through attacking then the intel requirements of operations need to be reduced. Or earn more intel from attacking as above.
All your points can be addressed by supercell investing and developing the game IF it was profitable to do so. Money.
Boom beach needs money, paying customers, free players (I was one) are only useful if money can be made. Either as eventual paying customers directly or as opponents for paying customers. Free to play players cannot be the end point of a sustainable game.

I see so many comments saying that the game is stale, so many people leaving the game, so many frustrated people. While the adage that negativity is always the loudest, it still needs to be addressed. I really enjoy the game but if the game can be changed for the better so that others can enjoy it then I am all for it. I am not inclined to see a managed decline due to principles and mechanisms established 5 years ago. Having money is more likely to get problems fixed than not having money. Boom beach needs to be commercialised to a much greater extent so it’s numerous problems can be fixed.

Hmmm I feel this reply has rambled a fair bit , apologies


Edit nah you are not alone, you make good points and others agree with your points but others disagree. My suggestion is not aimed at fixing the issue that Yallik has raised but to increase revenue and alleviate the pressure associated with the points Yallik has raised.
« Last Edit: Aug 28, 2019, 10:07 PM by Artist formerly known as Crows Nest »
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Offline LilMiss

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #39 on: Aug 28, 2019, 10:24 PM »
Argh, I lost my original :/

I don’t mind drifting – I do it too - , however, as legitimate as your views are, and no matter how sympathetic I am to your view points…  because you are trying to address so many points you are making lots of contradictions to the thread topic at hand. Yallik wants a better QOL and thinks that this can be achieved by getting rid of intel. A number of your points  involves playing the game more.  it is the opposite for where we want to go!
If we spawn more opponents by increasing the amount of opponents that can spawn then the intel we gain from beating them all will increase.
I’m going to reword that. By maximising our invasion rate (preferably for PvP) by keeping our maps clear*  (ish) we will get more spawns.
How many do you get in a day on average ( max / min if that is easier)? Easier to work on your numbers as you are, presumably, keeping your map cleaner than mine if you are pushing!
Quote

To attack people we need people to be in the match making pool, how is that bad?
If I land on your map and you do not attack me I cannot get any intel from you. It is only good – for all levels of the game – if people actually attack other PvP.  Further on you state “. Can’t imagine many people wanting multiple accounts to defend more”  but that is exactly what needs to happen to stop burn out, or the intel % for the second intel to be made more favourable.
 
What it takes to be on the OP LB  - not just an LB run.
To be an Ops player going for the LB you need to put in the ground work. You need enough PP to boost. Enough  proto parts to run the necessary protos, you need to have a good base design that collects intel. You need to keep your map clear to boost your spawn rate for PvP. And, really speaking, for high end ops on the 5/10 man TF you should be 1100 VP or higher to get that extra intel.  Then you get an attack ( if you are lucky, if you are not and have multiple accounts then you get to do more!) and your ranking depends on your teams performance. But there is a huge amount that goes on to make it on those LB’s. Its not easy – nor should it be. It shouldn’t be dumbed down because people rarely appreciated the work that is involved and think it is just one hit. That would make the boards meaningless.

 
Quote
Why do people have multiple accounts? One big reason is because the current game does not engage them sufficiently on one account. 

From an LB perspective… you need a second account or 3  because you can’t always get that extra person at the right level needed. Hoppers are no good, some are great if you know them and they know you… but from experience.. it isn’t helpful.  We’d leave our TF space open, an hour before op we’d pull in a second account, map clear for intel, then hit in the next op.  We had a pretty stable set up with peeps in remix, but often there was a core 9 out of 10 peeps with the 10th space like a revolving door for weeks lol.




The fundamental problem with OPs isn't intel.
There is a far more fundamental issue in the 5/10 TF as I have put in my Reply to Chauc. We have had other changes too.. like HQ21 &22 which gave us extra space on LC's and troop levels. OPs were harder.
  Credit to Redditors for this.
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As I said yesterday, in a 5 man ( as yallik stated he was in the vid), you are hoping that you get the easiest bases at a high fp. Looking at that link…  you can see the bases available for max FP.  Its that you can get easy bases for max fp. Bases like machina, axiom, tars, loo, tapir, java, coni, callisto – none of those you should be able to get for 298 or 262 points. The top point should be reserved for  strat, cooker, humble, torrent… etc. the bases which take multiple attacks.  The second tier – bases that are multiple hits eg fang which can be two, or hard solo bases for example, manti or chimera. You  may get lucky and in 5 hits get the top 3 bases and get 6 more intel than Fox. On the other hand, you may try and only get the top two places… and lose a lot more points. Some people will think it worth the challenge, others not.


The point of doing harder ops is to do the harder bases, but hoping that you get the ‘easy’ solo bases to get more FP is not how the LB should be. There is no extra skill in it. I doubt it would have been possible without  all the changes made by SC over the years.


Making that simple change, possibly moving an op base or two down… that would make a difference to the LB and intel collection...… because the OP level would drop to something more reasonable. We’d have an LB  that was based on skill, cos lets face it, beating boomtown in 2 hits is impressive attacking.
If people continue to do DE and get the top 3 bases  - all credit to them. That is good for the LB.


Yalliks vid was unscripted so he drifted a lot. I thought he mentioned he had IT, but then he started complaining about changing troops for different bases. And the time it can take to clear the map, and that he didn’t enjoy it and has a life he wants to live it.  Warriors are not the only troop that he uses he stated.


I would like to say, that it isn't just map clearing that is the problem with OP LB pushing. Mentally the pressure can be unreal, easy base or not and it can break people. We've had some solid attackers join remix, they do an easy base to settle in ( nerves) they screw up  and psych themselves out.  and you can tell if someone is good even when the attack didn't go to plan. The pressure you can exert on yourself can be brutal. you are your own worst enemy. map clearing is the least of the problems. On an LB run, its short lived, Credit goes to the guys and gals who stay there for extended periods.



« Last Edit: Aug 28, 2019, 10:49 PM by LilMiss »
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Offline LilMiss

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #40 on: Aug 28, 2019, 10:24 PM »
Ok, I’m going to deal with this separately, and my next comment is going to be controversial.
Back in the good old days we had  a term for those who practiced Ops. They were called modders.
It was considered cheating. In fact it was cheating and got banned for it.
The game is designed so that you *only* get one attack  every 23h 55m. It provided a challenge because bases were random. You may not get a chance to hit a particular base for a couple weeks because other people hit it, or it is infrequent or whaever. It is the rarity of hitting the bases that gives it the challenge.
If you took away intel you would have people having multiple accounts in multiple TF. Say I drew chimera. Ive never solo’d that. It’s a long time since I have tried it.  So ,we start an op in blaze.. and we draw chimera. With my second maxed account I make a TF, I start an OP. Chimera not there… so I leave the TF, start another OP,… leave the TF. Start another OP and so on until I have had enough practice.

Its basically legitimised modding.
 I appreciate that modding was multiple attempts at the same base… however, for the most part of the game there are few key paths and you learn those, there may be an extra shock here, or a critter thrown there… or maybe some cells which are available…  but essentially it’s the same. Some of the most technical paths were discovered my people modding.
If modding gave people huge advantages then removing intel would have the same effect. Unless you stopped people hopping altogether, For example, You cannot join another op when you are in one… even if you have left the TF you need to wait 23:55 before you can be included in the next one.  You would need to introduce a system like that.

It is worth pointing out, though I do not agree with it, that others consider that hopping as cheating, partly because it gives people practice, but also because it shores up other TF and they can get higher than they would with their own efforts.  Both of which skew the rankings.
Currently, hopping is relatively small. One of the points I though that lay  behind Yallliks vid was that, if there are no intel requirements, then people can run higher level ops and have hoppers in. Because when Yallik states practice.. it would need to be at a high enough level that he gets the harder bases. And other TF don’t necessarily have the intel for it, even if they have the space.
Even though I don’t hop, I wouldn’t like to see hopping banned. Nor would I like to see it in game tbh.
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Offline Chaucer

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #41 on: Aug 28, 2019, 11:32 PM »
If you took away intel you would have people having multiple accounts in multiple TF.

Thats the current situation though.
Practically all the players at the higher Op levels run multiple accounts. I doubt there is a single team in the top 200 of TF50 that has more than 40 unique members.Judging just from repeat names, looks like Phoenix Nine is maybe 25 individuals?

I have 6 accounts myself, spread across 5 different TFs, specifically because the thrill of Op hits is really all that interests me anymore.

I do PvP because I have too for the intel. I favor the TF50 partly because the per player intel demand is lower.
« Last Edit: Aug 28, 2019, 11:34 PM by Chaucer »

Offline Chaucer

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #42 on: Aug 28, 2019, 11:39 PM »
I think the desire for eliminating intel stems from us players trying to operate in the system SC has created.
They made these bases that are fun to hit, but you only can do them 4 minutes a day.Okay, so we can make new accounts, put in the years to build them up, and then we get multiple hits a day.But now we have to grind the intel even more.

SC could offer a different solution, perhaps a way to do more Op hits within a TF. Perhaps a version of TF vs TF. Change up the maps even more and let us run them all through in a monthly marathon. Lots of options.The desire to eliminate intel is only one solution to make it easier for us to play the parts of the game we find fun.

Offline LilMiss

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #43 on: Aug 29, 2019, 07:51 AM »
I think the desire for eliminating intel stems from us players trying to operate in the system SC has created.
They made these bases that are fun to hit, but you only can do them 4 minutes a day.Okay, so we can make new accounts, put in the years to build them up, and then we get multiple hits a day.But now we have to grind the intel even more.

SC could offer a different solution, perhaps a way to do more Op hits within a TF. Perhaps a version of TF vs TF. Change up the maps even more and let us run them all through in a monthly marathon. Lots of options.The desire to eliminate intel is only one solution to make it easier for us to play the parts of the game we find fun



Personally I’d love a TF v TF where we can design OP bases.


I’d also like it  if any good ones can be added to the normal OPs and rotated. Say they add 20 for the next 3 months max (for the whole OP range from milk run to duplicity!) - then switch them out for more.



Or they could rotate them quicker. It keeps people on their toes!
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Offline Yallik

Re: Yallik - 22 aug 2019 - Why Do We Still Have Intel?!?!
« Reply #44 on: Aug 29, 2019, 12:38 PM »
All right, this verbal diarrhea argument is pissing me off. All structure went out the window a long time hence.

I'll say this: paragraphing is a helpful tool for your readers. 😡

I love PvP. I wreck house with Warriors. I love ops. I'm fair with zookas. I DON'T love having to spend upwards of 2 hours a day raking up Intel. It makes the 5-man leaderboard harder, but it does nothing zero zilch nada to contribute to the validity of that leaderboard. Indeed, it cheapens it by muddying the issue. That LB should be about ranking which teams have the meanest Dead End killers. Period. Trying to mix in this weird conception about "whole game measurement" with intel just makes that leaderboard about something other than it purports to be about. And that's bullshit.

Again, I don't see that the intel requirement promotes integrity. I don't see that it promotes anything at all except the best players leaving the game because of SC's unreasonable op expectations.

As to the idea that Java Mach Coni etc should never be worth 262 or 298 FP as they're too easy -- I can't even. Now I need to go find a helmet, cuz that just makes me want to bash my head against a wall repeatedly.

There are a lot of preconceptions & assumptions built into some of the arguments here. Some of the things I said in the video were misunderstood.  Yeah I wander a little bit, sorry. But before releasing it, I watched it myself to make sure it says what I wanted. It does. So forgive the wandering, but you can always rewatch to get a better sense of what I actually said & meant (instead of blithely putting words in my mouth based on vague recollections).

But speaking of wandering, sooooo many red herrings here. I can't argue with all those. I don't care to, bc who has the f*****g time? Seriously, it's a problem.

I've made my point about ops players being punished by having a lot of extra PvP forced on them. I've made my point about killing the goose that laid the golden egg. The game has changed over the years. It's beyond time to get rid of all these silly old notions about what this or that "has" to be and reevaluate what BB needs NOW.




BTW intel isn't only a problem for 5 man LB squads. One of mine in a 25 (running "just" MA) got postponed over an hour last night cuz we were short. And eventually I couldn't even help anymore, because my map was quickly clear. So our leader was frantically bringing in like 15 dump accounts for the last 45 mins to get us to DC at least. He was so busy with that, he failed to notice right away that we beat the previous op.

Sure, that whole picture probably represents a healthy state of affairs, right? 🙄
« Last Edit: Aug 29, 2019, 12:52 PM by Yallik »